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College student of mine, Jeremy.
you remember the advice you gave me 5 years ago? It was one of the best words
of advice I’ve ever received in my life,” he said.
for breakfast this morning, let alone a piece of advice I gave someone over five
years ago. So, being a good shame-based culture person that I am, I faked it
and said, “Yes, of course!”
something, you’ve committed two sins: not knowing something and admitting to not
knowing something.
and get yourself a degree that you can make a living with”.
I’m an engineer today making a living and taking care of my family.”
hear me taking such a stance, but I had my reasons, of which the most important
was the welfare of my students. It was within the second year of teaching at that college when I noticed a good number of my students were graduating college with
$20-30K debt and ending up working behind a counter, asking customers, “Would you
like a tall, grande or venti?”
college degree to pump syrup in a coffee cup or work as a bank teller,” I used
to tell them.
thing only: pastors. The problem was that the denomination the college belonged
to couldn’t provide enough churches for these graduates to pastor. On the other
hand, the available churches were usually 20-30 member churches not able to
support the new pastor fulltime, which again, put my students behind the same coffee
or bank teller-counter.
Knowing how difficult it is to pastor in general, I
knew we (the college) were setting many of my students up for failure. If you haven’t thought about it already, someone has and is
ready to write me about it: “Aren’t you taking these kids away from their godly
calling to be pastors?” To believe that is to believe the only way to serve God
is to stand behind a pulpit, which in and of itself is a false assumption that
has been shoved down our throats for many years. I don’t need a pulpit to serve
Christ.
Christian organization in the United States, I was a civil engineer during the
day and a house-church planter at night, driving all over LA County preaching
the Gospel to a newly-arrived group of Iranian immigrants. Even if I had wanted
them to, these Iranians would have never been able to support my family and me for
what I was doing.
over my family’s head, food on our table and gas in my ‘69 VW Bug. Maybe even more important, I own my
home today – not because of the 30 years I pastored, but because of the 10
years I engineered. My salary as an Iranian pastor would have never been able
to purchase my family a house.
supporters before I was able to leave my engineering job. By then, I was also convinced
that was something I was called to do.
support her pastor fulltime, but those days are over. Today, to be fully
supported, the same pastor needs a church that is four to five times larger
than that. That was a reality that most of my students faced. Since, right off
the bat, pastoring a large church was out of the question, they needed to have
a job that would put a roof over their heads and food on their tables while
trying to pastor a small church.
the Bible College and first get a degree that would give them a solid base of financial
support. Meanwhile, they could do what I did for ten years: serve God where they were. If they never get into a “fulltime
ministry,” they haven’t wasted four years of college and thousands of dollars
getting an education they never needed. But, if they do, and feel they need
more Biblical education, they can always go back to Bible College and get their
Biblical degrees with the money they saved from their well-paying jobs.
ShahShankedRedemption 
LOVED your take on this subject, Shah. The entire student loan nightmare is a HORROR… and a RIP-OFF… The government should be ashamed of allowing it. And the Universities should be ashamed at allowing the uncontrolled costs. The education is also INFERIOR to the one we received back in the day, and the cost has escalated more than ten fold.
I would jump to the obvious conclusion and blame teachers unions, among other unions… but I digress.
PAUL was a tent-maker. Luke was a physician. Most of the disciples were fishermen. And apparently most of the early church fathers had other professions…
And when one looks at the difficulties of getting a job today, even with marketable skills… you gave the right advice.
If the hard pressed Government ever decides to tax churches, there will be another change. If the Body of Christ is forced underground into House Fellowships, that will be yet another chan
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What can I say John? You said it all.
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Hi Shah!
I totally agree with you. But not only is having a secular college degree helpful in preparing us to have a relatively lucrative career, but it also helps us broaden our perspective. I finished my college degree in Bachelor of Science in Forestry at the University of the Philippines before I went to the seminary, and I feel that earning a so-called secular degree first gave me a broader understanding of both God's Word and Work. God used my college training so that I could be more effective in ministering to college students and young professionals.
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Hey Rainie, good to hear from you. Just like John, there's nothing I can add to what you said.
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Uffdah Shah! Controversial topic, but there's much truth in your statement (I can attest!)
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What's uffdah, Ben?
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Shahrokh joon,
What an excellent work. For clearly stating what are the problems and what the truth is. God bless you for protecting so many from disastrous failures.
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Thanks Peter!
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Hi Shah,
I like this post and agree with you that we have far too many people who do not perceive vocational training as part of the mission of God. If the Bible college is only training pastors, then I agree that this is too limiting. At the same time, however, my training as an engineer gave me nothing in terms of missional or biblical preparation.
For what it’s worth, I see the opposite problem here in Kenya, in that the number of untrained missionaries is staggering and it deeply impacts their ability to be effective missionaries. They often try to address issues or problems, which missiological training could have helped them solve, but they lack some real basics for cross-cultural ministry. So I agree that we should not train everyone to be pastors, but I also affirm that those engaging in long term cross-cultural ministry should train for what they plan to do. Most do not, and in many cases those training opportunities around the world are diminishing due foremost to the failure of the church to engage in the mission of God and secondarily due to the missionary communities’ failure to take training seriously.
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Hi Shawn:
Let me make my answers to your comments accordingly:
“I like this post and agree with you that we have far too many people who do not perceive vocational training as part of the mission of God. If the Bible college is only training pastors, then I agree that this is too limiting. At the same time, however, my training as an engineer gave me nothing in terms of missional or biblical preparation.”
I never said your engineering degree was supposed to give a missional or biblical preparation. What my engineering degree did for me was to put food on the table and a roof over our heads while I was planting Iranian churches all over LA. I wasn't saying not to go to a Bible college. I was saying, “make sure to get a degree that can support you and your family.”
“For what it’s worth, I see the opposite problem here in Kenya, in that the number of untrained missionaries is staggering and it deeply impacts their ability to be effective missionaries. They often try to address issues or problems, which missiological training could have helped them solve, but they lack some real basics for cross-cultural ministry. So I agree that we should not train everyone to be pastors, but I also affirm that those engaging in long term cross-cultural ministry should train for what they plan to do. Most do not, and in many cases those training opportunities around the world are diminishing due foremost to the failure of the church to engage in the mission of God and secondarily due to the missionary communities’ failure to take training seriously.”
I couldn't agree with you more. Missiological training is very important for anyone who does the work of an evangelist or a missionary. However, as much as I learned at Fuller, after the first semester, I realized how grateful I was for having my years of missional experiences unlike so many other students who had just gone directly from a Bible college to the seminary. I was able to challenge many of my professors because, whereas they only had the book knowledge, I had the experience. I think in any point of our lives, our level of experience should match our knowledge and the other way around. However, to me, what matters at the end is how many people has a person introduced to Christ.
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Great message.
I personally think that NONE should be admitted to Bible school until they are at least 30, have held a meaningful steady job, and preferably have become married with children.
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I so agree with you, Jon. When I was at the seminary, I told all my professors they should never let anyone go there until at least they have 5-10 years of experience working in the field.
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I read your blog about Don't go to a Bible School. I do appreciate your stance and it should definitely be considered by those considering one. I am thankful that I did take the education track because there is still hope that I can take my credits elsewhere. If I wanted to be a teacher, after studying I realized that is not what I want to do.
I am one of those students that did leave Bible School and did not end up becoming a Pastor, Worship Leader or even teacher which was my focus.
What I did get from Bible School that I am glad I did, was developing my understanding of what I believe and why I believe it. I secured my foundation and was able to really soak up wise knowledge from my professors. I can say I still have more to learn and Bible School is not the only way to learn it., but it did teach me a lot for my own faith.
I am now managing two apartment communities in Seattle, still longing to find my niche.
Thank you for your understanding of the crucial spot of where it does lead students like me.
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Melinda,
It so great to hear from you. I am so sorry for replying to you late.
Thank you fro your comments. There are many students with secular degrees in engineering, art or political science who have not found their niche either, so you got nothing to worry about. At least, you have a good job and you don't feel like you missed your calling because you're not pastoring a church, you're not a missionary somewhere in the world, or even worse, being a secretary at a small church, making a minimum wage and considering that a ministry 😉
I am not against going to a Bible college so you can, as you say, “developing my understanding of what I believe and why I believe it”, as long as you have a job that is supporting you and you are not relying on the Bible college degree for that.
Again, it was good hearing from you. I pray that you'll soon find you niche in life. Until then, may the Lord give you all the contentment you need to continue.
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Hello Sir,
I read your article today and wanted to know what you think about how I can help my son.
12 years ago he wanted to go to Bible College and in 2005 he graduated with great grades from Moody Bible in Chicago with a Bible degree – we were so proud of him and were excited to see what things God had in store for him. He got a youth pastor job out of college and worked as a youth pastor for six years in very difficult and low paying situations – in the end he quit and got an inspector job in the port of Houston.
I feel bad now because I should have tried harder to get him to engineering school (in my view his more natural bent), but I didn’t want to get in God’s way with this young man. He is 31 years old now, and last weekend we went camping together and got to talk about his future. He is discouraged, he would like to be in ministry but now needs to support his family. His job is not sustainable for the long term. I told him he needs to get back to school either for a Masters (MDiv or counseling) or back to a more technical/marketable degree.
What do you think?
Sincerely,
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Dear David:
I can’t tell how honored I feel that you, having read my blog, are now asking me for directions for your son. To be honest, at first, I thought this was another email attacking me for going against God’s will by not encouraging young people to go to Bible college.
While I was a pastor, I told my son, Todd, if he ever becomes a pastor, I’ll kill him myself. Although this was said as a joke, I wanted him to know it is God who calls people into ministry and not their moms and dads and I’m glad he listened to me. However, as much as I wanted both my kids to get a degree in something they could make a living off, my son got a degree in Political Science and my daughter in Art History.
My son loves politics. At the age of 20 he ran for the mayor of the city where he was attending school. He lost to the incumbent mayor by only 400 votes. However, after he graduated, he spent the first 3 years selling and renting cars. Eventually, he applied for the Air Force officer’s school and today he is an Air Force captain. Meanwhile, he got his masters degree in Military Intelligence paid by the Air Force.
May I suggest your son gives the military a shot, or go back to school and get a degree in engineering, nursing, or IT related subjects? Why spent another 2 years and God knows how much money to get an MDiv.? What’s he going to do with it? Is there a large church waiting for him to become her pastor? I have one of those degrees. Once the Christian organization I was working for let me go, I couldn’t even get a job as a Wal-Mart greeter. By the way, after seven years, I’m still looking for a job.
Where does it say that we all need Bible degrees before we can serve God. I spent the first 10 years of my ministry—One that I founded, which at the time was the only one in the nation—being a fulltime engineer during the day and a pastor/church planter at night. And when the time came and I was offered a fulltime scholarship to attend Fuller Sem., I got my masters degree. Your son can do the same if he wants to serve the Lord and put food on the table. By the way, I believe not too far from now, most our pastors will be bi-vocational.
I hope I have answered some of your questions. It blesses my heart to see a dad who’s so concerned about his son’s future. However, you shouldn’t be too hard on yourself for not stopping your son to go to the Bible college. I couldn’t stop my son or daughter either. Your son is still too young and he can go back to school and start all over again.
Please let me know if I can be of any further service to you.
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